Addressing Systemic Factors that Impact Abortion

Elizabeth Graham, Lecrae, Benjamin Watson, Dr. Sha’ron Westbrooks, Christina Marie Bennett, Chandra White-Cummings, and Britani Doulos discuss systemic factors that impact abortion.

Elizabeth Graham: Today, we’re going to be discussing what many consider to be controversial. The topic is seeing the big picture; addressing systemic factors that impact abortion. We’re going to be zooming out and taking a broad approach to look at this from an international and a domestic perspective.

Human Coalition surveyed a group of women who were post abortive. And of the women that they surveyed, 76 percent said that they would prefer to parent if their circumstances were different. When they were asked that question, the reasons they listed were affordable housing, childcare, paid family leave, educational grants, food instability, a livable wage, and affordable healthcare.

So we’re going to just take a dive into these very nuanced and complicated topics today as we seek to address this issue with some amazing panelists this morning. Sha’ron, I’m going to come to you first. As you think about globally, the systemic drivers of abortion, what particular challenges do you see?

Sha’ron Westbrook: I really see the limited autonomy that women have as one of the major factors that impacts women’s decisions on having an abortion.  The lack of autonomy really is across the spectrum without regard to what country that you go to, what  neighborhood you’re in the United States, what village you’re in in Afghanistan, you see that and that is one of the major systemic factors.

Elizabeth: What do you think a global pro-life movement that addresses those challenges would look like?  

Sha’ron: Enabling women to have the ability to take control of their life. Having conversations and getting people to understand that it is imperative that one size does not fit all. You listed several factors that are very common among women in the United States. But if you’re in other countries where men can tell women what to wear, how to cover up, it far exceeds it. 

And very often the stigma that’s put on women leads them to get an abortion. For some women, they don’t want to bring a child into an already very bad situation. Consequently, they will go and seek someone within their village to terminate this pregnancy. Or they may think, if I don’t give him children, he’ll get rid of me and I can get away from him. So there are so many factors globally that impact women.   

Elizabeth: That’s really good. Thank you so much. Does anybody else Have any perspective they want to add to that? 

I know that the international conversation has been one of significance as we look at what’s happening here domestically. And the impacts that abortion are having on the domestic conversation. When we look out internationally, what we’re seeing in terms of population control what we’re seeing in Planned Parenthood’s work that they’re doing internationally, the spend in the communities that they’re working in. 

I think there’s a lot of really important factors that we need to keep an eye on internationally because those trends also have domestic implications. And so as believers who care deeply about this issue, we believe that all life is worthy of protection, worthy of being defended. And that’s why I think we also need to care deeply about what’s happening to our international neighbors as well. 

Benjamin Watson: Yeah, I think it’s important to ask that question, Elizabeth. Think a lot of times internationally eugenics, which is what it is, is cloaked in aid or in helping someone. We can look no further than even Gates and what he’s doing, and what so many other philanthropists throughout history have done specifically on the continent of Africa. 

And a lot of these things have eugenic origins when it comes to sterilization, when it comes to population control, all those sorts of things. And I agree with you. So many times in this country, and I can only speak for this country because this is where I live, but we are very introspective. 

And I think that we need to be introspective, because God has placed us here in the United States for this time to do his work in this time but we also need to understand that we are part of a global brother and sisterhood. And especially as believers, the church spans around the world and knowing what our brothers and sisters are going through and seeing it for what it is, It’s important to be able to call it out. 

And the only way that we can call those things out and unveil what seems to be something good, but it’s really nefarious, is if we are willing to dig a little deeper and understand the roots in this case of the eugenics movement which has had his tentacles for centuries honestly, and manifest not just in the works of the abortion industry domestically with Planned Parenthood, but also across the world with what seems to be good charitable initiatives.  

Lecrae: I had a question just based off of what you said about the autonomy that women don’t have in other countries. I’m just curious just from where I sit or where we sit, how can we support or, internationally, like what that could potentially look like when there’s places like that?  

Sha’ron: First it has to start here. In our own country because it’s limited here. That’s why it’s a global presence. Then it starts with valuing human life, even women. The value of women’s lives is not there.  Consequently, it moves from the woman to the unborn child.  And we have to get to the point where we can change perspective of individuals because the large majority of us act and react based off of our experiences, our environments, and how we are brought up. So changing the mindset, and for us as saints of God, we know that it’s having a walk with Christ and a relationship with him.  But not everyone has that, so we have to change the mindset of individuals to value women and life.  

Elizabeth: That’s such a strong word. And I really appreciate that perspective. I think the question and your answer Sha’ron, were really good. And Benjamin, your contribution. And then Lecrae’s follow up question. I think these are all really important to the overarching conversation that we’re looking to have. 

So, Christina, I’m going to come to you next. In a recent study, Notre Dame did, they asked people their thoughts on abortion.  And an overwhelming number of people were clear that they didn’t think of abortion as a societal good, but a necessity given the current landscape of people.  Also, in a post study, people described economic factors as a main reason why they think abortion is an option. So, can you help us think through, especially given your work at a local pregnancy center, what are some of the common economic factors and how can we address the ones that are driving people to seek abortion?  

Christina: So, I would say that one of the biggest issues for women who are facing unplanned pregnancies is housing insecurity. It’s huge. If you’re talking to a woman who just found out she’s pregnant, she may be living with a partner that does not want her to have that child. In many cases, she may be living with a partner who has other children and he may be coercing her or pressuring her to have an abortion. She could be living with her parents and to tell her parents that she’s pregnant means she may have to go. 

And where is she going to go?  You can call churches and say, “Hey, I’ve got a pregnant woman and she needs help” but oftentimes they don’t have resources to provide for her. They may be able to raise money for her to get a hotel for a couple of days, which is awesome. But for the long term, where do they go?  

Sometimes they have to go to shelters. But in states like mine, Connecticut, when it’s really cold in the winter, those shelters fill up. There are programs for section eight and housing programs like that, but oftentimes there’s really long waiting lists. And then sometimes the government doesn’t fund those programs, so they shut down. For example, in my state of Connecticut, we had a Catholic home called St. Agnes, which existed for over a hundred years and it was a home for teenage mothers to come in, but the state stopped funding it. And they said they had some excuses about how we don’t need to fund it anymore because nowadays people don’t want to live in these kinds of homes, and they want to live with family members. So, it closed its doors, leaving one less resource for women in need. So, I think housing insecurity is one of the biggest issues facing women.  

They’re having unplanned pregnancies, and we have to figure out what can we do? How can we create affordable housing? Again, speaking from my own experience in my own state, Connecticut is really segregated but maybe not in the way people think from city to town. So, some of the cities and some of the towns, especially they don’t want affordable housing because affordable housing brings in certain people that they don’t want in their community. And so they’re not going to have a bus system, they’re not going to have apartments that are affordable for people.  

I remember working with a pro-life businessman who was self-funding pro-life work, but he also did housing. And I remember one day he came in from a town meeting and he was so frustrated. He said, Oh, Christina, gosh, I can’t even tell you what the people were saying to me in that meeting. And I said, Oh I know what the people were saying to you in that meeting. 

They were saying they don’t want black people in their neighborhood. And so they don’t want you to build this affordable housing. And he was older white guy and yeah, basically that is basically the conversation that happened. So that’s one of the issues. 

I would also say, quickly, childcare. Sometimes people forget that women who are thinking about having abortions, they’re often mothers, and so they often have other children. Two of the women right now that I’m working with, who are considering abortion or considered abortion, but said they are going to parent but they go back and forth in their mind. 

Both of them have two Children already and both of those children are under 10 years old. And so oftentimes moms are thinking, okay, I’m going to bring another child into the world, but how am I going to take care of the children I already have? Daycare is so expensive, and they may not have the kind of resources that they need to be able to provide for them to go to work and know that their child is in a safe place. 

And so that’s a big issue. And I guess the last one I would say too, which I think is something especially affecting black women is domestic violence. It’s a whole conversation that we could get into about that. But I really think that also factors into the housing as well because sometimes they can’t live in the place they’re staying because it’s not safe, and they might have to go to a domestic violence shelter. 

And so those are just some of the issues, there’s a, those are a lot, but those are the ones I’ve seen the most working with women over the years.   

Elizabeth: I think housing is an important, a very important conversation because just yesterday we had the conversation, just a side conversation with Pastor Moody, and he was specifically talking about a woman within his congregation that was in the process of scheduling her appointment at Planned Parenthood to have an abortion. 

And she, he said, just give him 24 hours to see if he could work on this for her. Just give him 24 hours to see if he could get some resources for her. And he said he spent all day calling all over the city to try to find housing for her because she had a housing instability.  And that was the primary factor that was driving her to feel that she had no other option of abortion. 

And she did have other children.  And she did have help from her family but that was more limited, and the family was unwilling to take another child.  And so I think that’s a very important reality that she was facing. She did end up still choosing abortion. They could not get her housing. There was nothing, it was gonna be a minimum of a two week wait. And the reality is that women are in crisis now. They don’t have two weeks to wait on someone to help find them housing.  And with the accessibility of abortion, chemical abortion as well, we see this shrinking window of intervention.  

And we have a limited ability to intervene and to both serve mom while we seek to help rescue the baby. But we need to set mom up for long term success by removing the driver that led her to the decision that she felt that she had no other opportunity but to choose abortion.   

Christina: Yeah, I was really moved by meeting Pastor Moody. I was actually bawling my eyes out at the end of the night after I talked to him and learned that he’s building this maternity home on the south side of Chicago. And I want to speak in a hopeful way and letting people know that we can do this. Even if we don’t have the money to build a huge affordable housing complex. There’s a couple in Connecticut, they worked with the church and someone passed away and donated them a big piece of land and a beautiful house. And so they started a ministry, I think it’s called the Nehemiah house, and they house women. And I think they can probably take about five or six women.  And again, some people might think, Oh, that’s a small amount, but you got to start somewhere. 

And that’s one more resource. When I’m calling people on the phone, looking for a place I know, okay, I can call the Nehemiah house and women can go and they can live there. And so if people have land, or property, or resources, we can start maternity homes. We can do this.   

Elizabeth: Yeah, there’s also another really great project that I’m aware of that’s being worked on. And some of this is just about helping people to understand that there are resources, but that there are more that are needed. The Church of God in Christ has been working on some really incredible projects in terms of affordable housing. And I see that work that they’re doing, and I’m just so thankful to be able to know about it. 

They’re working on a new project in the Frasier community in Memphis. And I’ve just had the privilege to be able to hear about some of that work and to be able to champion what they’re doing. And so I encourage you as you’re hearing this talk today and as you’re listening to us have this conversation, the Nehemiah House, checking out what the Church of God in Christ is doing, and let’s see how we can create more options together as we work on these issues.  

Chandra, I want to come to you next. When we talk about the pro-life movement, some may worry that we’re getting too vague when we expand beyond the issues other than abortion and really just saving the preborn life. Can you share a bit about why we need a holistic pro-life movement that is focusing on conception to natural death as the underlying theological framework for our advocating for life. 

Chandra: Yes, I can. This is like one of my things, right? I’m just sitting here going, when can I talk, when can I go? When you think about it Elizabeth, the thing that I say to myself and the thing that I try to communicate to other people as I do talk to other people about this issue is that when we really consider it and certainly hearing the things that we’ve heard so far, wouldn’t it be not advisable to try to deal with these other issues that are feeding into how a woman is making an abortion decision.  

So if we were to answer somebody and they say why do we need to be concerned about these things? Why can’t we just stick to, worrying about, as you say, rescuing this unborn person who is a person, right? 

They’re a person, a human being created in God’s image. We know that. We believe that. And they’re sincere when they say why do we have to worry about whether she’s got housing or whether she’s in a domestic violence? What we say is that there’s a couple of things.  

One, we worry about it, and we’re concerned about it because our reading and our take on the gospel is that God is concerned about it. 

So for example, when Jesus was talking to this woman at the well, the Samaritan woman, right? He was not just concerned about her bad acts. He knows them, he’s aware of them, but he didn’t even zero in on that. He mentioned it as it aside, but what he really was talking to her about was those driving issues in her life. 

He said, you know what you don’t even know what you’re worshiping. She had a spiritual problem. She had a social problem because she was Samaritan. She had all kinds of things going on in her life. And so he did not simply start right in a you got six, five husbands or whatever, and the one you’re with now, he didn’t go there, he mentioned it, but my point is, he dealt with, he was not afraid to confront the things that he knew were in her life that was contributing to how she was behaving, and the things that she was doing. So we say likewise, are we any better than Jesus? Likewise, wouldn’t we follow his example and say, all right, these women don’t live in a vacuum. They don’t live in a bubble. It’s not just, like we can circumscribe a frame around them and say, all right, let’s zero in on this one situation in her life. Life is complicated. We know that we understand it, but we have to know it and understand it but we have to know it to the level that we are willing to confront it. 

And sometimes I think that maybe people get concerned about that because they don’t want to forget the fidelity of really trying to make sure that we remember that unborn person. But what we say is that we’re never going to forget about that unborn person because that unborn person is tied to the mother and the family into which that person we hope and pray is going to be born. 

So that’s the first reason why. 

Lecrae: Hold on you saying some good stuff. You need to put that microphone close to your mouth, because you’re saying too many good things for these people to miss it.  

Chandra: I appreciate Lecrae right now.  Ooh, you guys are so awesome. 

Alright, so we’re gonna bring this back together. We’re never ever going to forget about this unborn person. Why? Because they are tied to the mother. Some people are like we don’t want women to just feel like vessels, like all they’re doing is having a child. 

We’re not cheapening it that way. But we are opening our eyes and saying, this person is coming into a family, into a church maybe, into a neighborhood, into a community. And they are their own person created by God. So we’re never going to forget them. But we also cannot use that, or we cannot fall back on that to then diminish the real factors that this woman, this mother might be dealing with. Second reason real quick, why we want to have the holistic view is because it just makes common sense. 

We talk a lot about common sense policy, and this is one of the biggest areas where common sense policy can win the day. I love that Christina was talking about housing insecurity. It’s huge, right? So American Community Survey in 2019 did it did a survey in a study and in that it showed that 70 percent… Okay, so for households that are headed by non-married black women, in that universe, 70 percent of those renters are cost burdened. Which means that they have way too high a percentage of their income that is going to their housing every month. 

So 70 percent of the renters are cost burdened, and 50 percent of the homeowners were cost burdened. That’s a problem. That’s a lot of women and that’s the universe that we’re interested in. Unmarried black women, because guess what? That also ties to who’s having abortions in many instances. 

So these are very direct connect the dot things, realities that honestly we would be unwise not to really see the connections and not to address it. So there’s housing there. There’s also the issue of livable wage. If a woman cannot have enough money to meet her basic needs… Okay, the 2020 US census told us that, for black women, they’re 58 percent pay gap, which means that for every dollar a white man earns a black woman is getting paid 58 cents. She’s not even at 75 cents. She’s at 58 cents on the dollar. That’s an issue.  

Benjamin: With the same education level and all those sorts of things, when you account for that as well.  

Chandra: Yes. So it doesn’t really matter how we stratify it. The fact is the same, that we’ve got a living wage problem and we have an affordable and sustainable housing problem. 

And, I could go on, but I won’t. But those are just two really big issues.  

Elizabeth: You could go on.  

Chandra: No, I don’t want to.  

Benjamin: We’re listening. You can.   

Chandra: So that’s how, we particularly on the Whole Life Committee that’s part of the AND campaign, that’s why we push so hard because it’s almost like we’re creating our own repeating cycle. 

We talk about the fact that a lot of women who are having abortions are repeat, I don’t want to say offenders, they’re repeat abortion people, right?  

Elizabeth: The statistics show us. That of the women who have an abortion,45 percent of women who have had one abortion are at risk of a second abortion. So unless there’s a disruption of the cycle of abortion, the likelihood of her having a second abortion, whoever she Is, is one in two. Which is really significant.  

Sha’ron: Yes. Can I just add that’s why we have to take a holistic approach proactively. So often we’re reactive. After the fact. So when we look at this and why it’s important to us to look beyond just the immediate pregnancy to the far-reaching impact that birth will have in society is because if we do not, then the life that’s created may not have the ability to be a productive life in society. 

So we do have to look at improving education in that area. We do have to look at an affordable wage. We do have to look at the neighborhoods. We do have to look at all of those things that impact that life. Not when the life is starting, but prior to that. That’s why when you hear us speaking of it has to be from the womb until the end of the life, we have to look at that is because all of that matters. 

All of that is relative. So often we hear people saying I value the life. They value the life. We want that life to make it out of the womb. But after the life gets out of the womb – where is the education? Where is the mental health? Where is the prevention of substance abuse? There are so many factors that drive a woman to say, no, I just can’t do this. 

And all of it stems from environment and perspectives that they have on life. So many times you hear women saying, I just cannot bring another life into this world and not have it be a meaningful life because they’re not going to get education. They need to be taught about wealth building, having access to quality banking. 

All of that is important. And it all feeds into this pro-life. If I am an individual and do not have access to banking, and I’m using a check cashing place, I already can’t go from paycheck to paycheck, and they’re charging me 300% on a loan, I get 100 and then they charge me 50 in two weeks… 

All of these things impact because they’re already having difficulty making ends meet. Their mentality is, okay, you’re gonna give me a place, but then what? What’s going to happen to my child? So all of these things play. It’s very good to have social services after the fact. But what are we doing before? community building is important before. 

Benjamin: Sorry about that. Just quickly, I think what we’re hearing is we have to reimagine America honestly. And part of the conversation when it comes to pro-life and pro-choice, we think about it in a political space. And so it’s very difficult for some people in the pro-life community, specifically the white evangelical pro-life community, to think about services because they vote Republican.  

And to think about factors and pathways that drive the abortion rate. And to think about systemic injustice. It rails against many of their political affiliations because that’s Democrat.  And so I think that what we’re saying, what so many people are saying is we have an opportunity here. I think as a pro-life movement collectively, whether you’re Republican or Democrat, progressive, conservative, doesn’t matter, to open the floodgates of how we serve people and how we talk about serving people. 

Because too often when someone hears whole life or someone hears address the factors, they think that’s for those people that vote that way. And I think what I’ve been challenged to say and what I tell people is, no, it doesn’t matter what side you vote on. If you care about people and you care about human flourishing period, these are issues that we should be able to address regardless of how you vote. 

I believe it was Desmond Tutu had a quote that I don’t want to misquote him, but it was something like this – “At some point, we’ve got to stop pulling people out the river and figure out why they’re falling in.” And it takes some courage to figure out why people are falling in. It takes some courage to go upstream and address some of these issues. 

It takes some courage to peel back the layers of history and the numerous civil rights acts and the numerous issues where the government stripped people of their rights and how that plays  into how that plays into this wage gap, how that plays into an income gap, a net worth gap, how it plays into certain neighborhoods where there are food deserts. 

As we talked about before, there’s not opportunity and how those neighborhoods were created by our government. If you don’t believe me, read the color of law by Richard Rothstein. It tells all the… it spills all the beans on that. But what you see is a context where abortion rates are simply higher among different demographics.  

And if we care about those things, it’s one thing to put a band aid on it and to advocate for the child. That’s vitally important. I don’t think, however, I wouldn’t go as far to say that if you don’t care about those other things, you aren’t pro-life. No, you are pro-life. But I think what we’re saying is if we really want to make abortion unthinkable and unnecessary we have to address a multitude of factors.  

And quite honestly, that can be overwhelming for an individual. It’s like, how do I address all these things by myself?  How do I even do it as a church? How do we address these things?  And that can be daunting and discouraging. But someone said that we have to start somewhere. I think it was you, Christina, said we have to start somewhere, but we also have to use our voices to push the right a little more to the center, push the left a little more to the center.  And honestly, this might sound radical, but I think there’s an opportunity here as a pro life movement to create a whole different way of thinking, politically even, on this topic. Like to think about legislation in a totally different way. To be more of a bigger tent, a platform that’s more welcoming because all these voices matter.   

Chandra: And can I say to Benjamin that I just want to pick up what you started off by saying which is a lot of this has to do with how people’s politics are feeding into things. I’m just gonna add and I’m gonna put it out there because we’re having a conversation, right?  

Something else is driving people is their theology. And a lot of people that I have met they’re very concerned that if we, you know, begin to try to address these factors which are real, which are undeniable, which are pervasive- then somehow we’re providing an out to someone to say, “Oh, okay. So you know what? It’s okay. that you had an abortion. It’s okay.” I try to say to them with a loving corrective, but I do try to say to them no, that’s not what this is about. We’re going in on a certain level of understanding about this. We’re fighting and pushing back against this because we know and understand that this is against the will of God. 

So that’s not even really part of our… It’s not part of our modus operandi right now. What we’re trying to do is what we believe Jesus would have us do based on what he’s already done. Which is we’re trying to stem the flow of that by, as he said, going back to the broken faucet or going upstream and figuring out what’s really going on here. 

So we have to challenge people. Also check yourself on your theology. Do you believe that Jesus is like sitting up there with his arms folded going, I don’t care what you’ve been going through. I don’t care what your circumstances are. You’re wrong. I know people hear that in their heads and they feel obligated to that mindset. I can’t let that go because if I give them an excuse, if I give people a reason that’s okay, people gonna just keep doing it. It’s like when you talk about contraception, which I’m not, but I’m saying that it’s that same type of circular thinking that we engage in about that.   

Christina: It’s like they’re thinking they don’t want to reward bad behavior, but that’s not really what we’re talking about at all. 

Lecrae: So we shouldn’t care about widows and orphans and imprisoned peoples. What people are literally… I don’t know, somebody in the Bible I think said we should care about that. I don’t know. 

Christina: Somebody said that somebody run a reference but yeah… 

I think about these women, oftentimes they feel like a widow, you know. Maybe they’re not a widow because their partner didn’t die, but their partner abandoned them. I mean I was talking to a woman this week who said I can’t do this without… I have two children that don’t have the father, how can I bring another baby where the father’s gone,I can’t do this. And so many women would choose to parent if the father said, okay, let’s do this. But when they leave, they feel like a widow feels they feel abandoned and alone.   

Brittany: Yeah. And I was going to say to pay back off what you all were saying. Something that I’ve thought about more for us as believers and in the church, having a more holistic faith that encompasses, that reminds us, we have a mind, we have a body, we have a soul, and we have a spirit. And so if we’re addressing that within ourselves and our congregations and saying, okay, I’m not just a body having a spiritual experience. It’s like my body, but the soul and a mind and different physical things impact my spirit and my mind. 

Then we can enter into someone else’s situation to a degree, with the level of empathy that is lacking, in a lot of spaces to say, you know what? Let me ask some deeper questions. And if I’m a holistic being and they’re a holistic being, there are different things that are impacting them. 

So I think for us as Christians, we have to start saying, okay, where is my faith disembodied as well.  

Christina: That’s the key word, empathy. Like Ben was saying, regardless of your political party we have different politics. I’m a conservative. I feel like God called me to join the Republican Party years ago to be a voice for life and be separate from my family and go that road. 

And I was obedient to that. And that’s where I operate in. And regardless of what your politics are, we’re talking about empathy, empathy. You see someone hurting, you see someone in need, you see someone that needs shelter. What did the Lord say? Whatsoever you do unto the least of these, you do unto me, or you don’t do unto me. 

That’s how Mother Teresa saw people. When she saw people dying on the side of the road, in Calcutta, she saw Jesus. That person needed food and love and a place to die where they would have dignity and respect. I just don’t feel that we can truly show people that we love them if we’re not willing to show empathy in practical ways.  

Elizabeth: I think there is literally so much to unpack here. I feel like we could have an entire day just talking about this one particular piece of the conversation. There’s so much to just dive into and so much rich conversation happening. And I just, I personally feel emotional  

Chandra: It’s okay to cry.  

Elizabeth: That the Lord has allowed me this great privilege to sit here and have this conversation with you all. That you would really allow me to enter into it with you.  

Ben: We appreciate you having the conversation.  

Chandra: We do because not everybody is willing to have these conversations. They shouldn’t be controversial. But they are so we are grateful that we can have it. 

Lecrae: Yeah, one of the things I think is important is, oftentimes you hear folks, especially in the more white evangelical spaces talk about how devastating this is for the black community. You know how abortion is just so devastating to the black community and I would say that all the more gives credence to why we need to sit here and listen to these voices up here, specifically these black women who are representatives of that very community. 

And these are the voices that we need to be listening to. These are the voices that we need to pay attention to because we want to see that change within those communities. And so even for me, I have so many thoughts and so many perspectives. We’ve been talking about it all the whole time we’ve been here, but I find it more advantageous for me to sit here and listen to these women who are in the trenches and who have been doing the work and are doing the work and have an incredible perspective. 

And I think we need more of that. We need more uplifting you all’s voices in these spaces and places so that we can take action and be better advocates.  

Elizabeth: It’s so good.  It’s just a thank you. So before I lose it anymore. Brittany, you’ve, sorry, let me just, wrap this up real quick. Okay. Brittany, you said that abortion is a black and a white issue but reasons that women obtain abortion are gray and nuanced. Why does the church need to understand both those facts to help make abortion unnecessary and unthinkable?   

Brittany: Yeah. So when we’re talking about abortion as a black and white issue, meaning when it comes to the morality of it, it’s always wrong to take the life of an unborn child for any reason. 

But when it comes to the reasons that women, as we’ve talked about, there are various reasons that women choose abortion. It’s not always black and white. It’s not always I hate God and I just want to kill my baby. Those reasons are nuanced. And it could be not having the support of a partner, your family, dealing with guilt and shame for being pregnant, having other children, not having the financial, emotional, mental, spiritual support things of that nature. Maybe even you’re pregnant by sexual assault. That is something that happens and that we definitely need to have more conversations about because that is happening. So it’s important because we need to remember as a church that, you know, seeking to understand the reasons women choose abortion does not mean that we’re going to justify the reasons. So understanding does not equal justification.  

Elizabeth: That’s a good word  

Brittany: And so I think that’s even just a word for in any conversation we’re in seeking to understand someone. Saying I don’t agree with you but I want to understand so that I can find common ground and have a conversation with you. And so partnering empathy and compassion with the truth and conviction of God’s Word to say we value the life of this mother and this image of the child in the womb will help to change hearts and minds on abortion. 

But also help us to provide life affirming needs that are specific to each individual woman and her baby’s needs. Because a woman who, let’s say she’s a CEO and finds herself pregnant, it’s not just I just don’t want to do this. She’s got different needs. She might not have family support, so she’s got different needs than a woman who is unemployed or underemployed or experiencing homelessness. 

Keeping kind of those things in mind and remembering it from like another perspective. I’m seeking to understand while not justify, so that we can really find the proper resources and support necessary for vulnerable women and their babies.  

Elizabeth: Yeah I just want everyone to hear this. I just want you to say it one more time. Empathy and compassion 

Brittany: With truth and conviction of God’s word. That’s right. Yeah. It’s both. Seeking to understand is not justified. It’s not binary. Yeah. It’s both/and not either/or.   

Elizabeth: I just wanted one more time, let’s reemphasize that. Lecrae, I’m going to come to you. One of the things that you’ve talked about in your own story is the way that abortion felt like an escape from fatherhood. At the same time, your music has highlighted the way that the wider culture had been teaching you about absent fatherhood through broken families since you were a child.  How can the church step in to help break this cycle of broken families?   

Lecrae: Yeah, I think, Benjamin kinda hit on it a little bit. You gotta get to a place where you start asking why. Like, why is this happening? I didn’t have a father in my life. My father, I didn’t meet my father until I was a grown man. And so that was just my reality and how do you break these cycles that continue to happen that puts men like myself in a position to where we’re, for me particularly, coercing our partner to get an abortion, right? 

And I think case in point, there’s a young lady who wants to have an abortion. Why is that? Because the father’s in and out of prison. Why is the father in and out of prison? Because he can’t find a stable job. Why can’t he find a stable job? Because his quality of education was not good. And so you’ve got to go all the way back to the educational system that did not prepare him for the world. Which has him taking part in criminal activities in order to pay bills, which has him in and out of prison, which has this woman saying, he’s not going to be around to help me take care of this child. 

So this is the perpetuated brokenness. And so what I would say is…we were joking about it earlier. It’s like some people will say you need to eat better. Stop eating at these fast-food places. It’d be great if there weren’t none in my community, but that’s all I see. 

That’s all I see. So can you help me? Can you put something better in my community? And if you are an advocate for pro-life or whole life as far as the fathers are concerned, man, is stopping that cycle of brokenness.  How do we invest in opportunities so that these men can be providers and be consistent and be educated in the family structure? 

Elizabeth: I think there’s an ongoing theme that I’m hearing and it’s upstream intervention, not at the expense of downstream disruption of cycle.  

We want to see the issue addressed in a way that it’s not just this woman finds herself in a crisis. Maybe she has a partner, maybe she doesn’t have a partner, and then there’s intervention. 

We need to be working very far upstream to address some of these very complicated issues.  While we serve women here who still need intervention here, while we do downstream intervention also. 

Lecrae: that’s right.  

Elizabeth: And I so appreciate the conversation that you’re having with us right now. 

Lecrae: We need a triage, of course, for people who are bleeding out. But then you also need preventative care and helpful care. At the end of the day, the unborn are very easy to advocate for. They don’t vote differently. They don’t get in and out of prison. They don’t ask for money. And so it becomes a very easy way to be an advocate for the unborn. 

But when you start talking about the bigger picture, the whole community, the whole life now it gets a little tricky. Now it gets a little complicated.   

Benjamin: And I can just add on fatherhood, because I think that’s a great question. And I love everything Lecrae said. You’re exactly right when it comes to fatherhood and when it comes to men specifically, and in seeing the larger picture of why a man might be absent because all those things are true. 

And that’s not just your opinion. That’s documented. We can actually go back and track legislation that has come from our government that has removed men out of the equation and has made it very difficult for men in our communities to be who God has created them to be. Now, all that being said, and this is the beauty of the grace and truth of the gospel, of the justice and mercy of the gospel of the both/and. This is the beauty of this conversation that a lot of people miss because it’s easy for us to latch on, it’s lucrative to latch on to an extreme. It’s either all your fault, dad, or it’s none of your fault, dad. That pays big money. But the truth of the matter is something more complex. 

We can believe everything and talk about everything Lecrae said a hundred percent, right? We can track how men have been removed from communities, how they’ve been emasculated by not having jobs and not having education. We have seen a systemic and systematic removal of our leaders. And we can also say, but man. You have a responsibility.  

Lecrae: That’s right. That’s right.  

Benjamin: But man, we know the way the game’s being played. We understand there’s three strikes against you. We understand that it’s been difficult for you since you got on this land, but you know what? You still have responsibility. You still have a choice. We can have a personal responsibility conversation and a systemic injustice conversation at the same time. And I think that’s what was difficult for a lot of people to understand.  

It’s like it has to be either one or the other, because as I mentioned before, that’s easy because you usually point to the side that you’re not on and point the finger at those people who aren’t doing what you’re doing and not at yourself. 

But we can still challenge men to be the priest, the prophets, the protectors, the providers in their homes, because we see even throughout scripture – The generational blessing or the generational curse that comes from manhood through their family.  And if I’m Satan, I’m going after the man. That’s what he did in the garden. 

He disrupted man and woman. He turned them against each other and he’s still doing that today. And so I love this conversation, especially when it comes to manhood, because we have to encourage men to stand in the gap for the women and their children. We have to tell them, even if you didn’t see it, you have what it takes. We serve a God who’s a father to the fatherless. You have what it takes. There are other men, and it’s important for other men who are doing it to encourage these men and say that they have what it takes that they can do it that we need them that their children need them that the mothers of their children need them that our communities need them. 

At the same time saying you know we’re going to fight for you to get a job. We’re going to fight for you to get some education. We’re going to fight against all these things that are trying to remove you and make you and put you in prison or remove you from the streets or move you from the home. We’re going to fight against all those things for you from womb to tomb while also calling you to a standard that God has called you to and he has equipped you for.  

Lecrae: And that’s why I also tend to struggle with the co-opting that the political realm does in terms of what we’re advocating for, because too often, like you were saying, there’s room for something very different to take place. Because what we often see will say, one political side of the aisle may say: Hey, it’s your responsibility, take responsibility and do what you have to do. And another side of the political aisle will say, he doesn’t have any options and he doesn’t have any choices. And you have the means to provide him with options. And it’s like: Hey, what if we work together? Because now there’s being started by one side of the political aisle to help these men with changes, but then they also need the challenge to be the men that God has created them to be. And I think that’s a Christian narrative. That’s a biblical narrative. It’s not a political ideology. It’s a biblical ideology. And I think that’s what we’ve got to begin advocating for is – do not take the life of this child and let me support you in this decision that you’re, that I’ve convinced you not to make.  

Chandra: Yes, that I’ve convinced you not to make. I like that. I like that because it hits the nail on the head. If I could just jump in real quick. I think that in addition to all the just truly awesome things that Ben was talking about, is that women we have to allow ourselves to allow this entrance and this involvement and this amplification of the voice of a man to come in. 

We do already know from research, Care Net did a really bang-up job, did a lot of research about why women are making abortion decisions. And one of the seminal findings that came out of that is that it’s connected to what the father is saying. If the father is saying, no, we cannot do this. And we will not do this. Then they’re not going to do it. But if the man is saying I don’t know how, but we’re going to do it, we’re going to make it, we’re going to push through. It is very much tied to the relationship with the man, the kind of rapport they have, and so on and so forth. So why am I bringing this up? 

Because sometimes, and I don’t want to really talk about the reasons why, but sometimes, women, we have been conditioned and socialized that, hey, we don’t need that. We don’t need them. And think about the perniciousness and the nefarious nature of how the pro-choice I’m just going to say it, the pro-choice folks, right? They come in with that right away. It’s “this is your decision.” So right away they have isolated a woman and said don’t be listening to him, her, your mama, Aunt May and all these other people. This is just you. This is your decision. So now she’s in this box and it’s like crap, it’s my decision. And it sounds empowering. 

It sounds like the way to go. I don’t want to start theologizing, but I will say that we know that there are ways, there’s a way that seems right. There’s a way that seems right. But this is not the way. We want to, from the very beginning, honor the life of that unborn person in there by getting the broadest coalition of folks, that is ready to support their existence, and they’re making it down that birth canal, as early as we can. So don’t box that woman in and right away make her feel like, Oh God, what am I going to do? It’s just me. I don’t know where I’m going to get the research. No. You, right away, contact your dad. 

Okay, I’m pregnant. What, we? What are we going to do? If you have like friends and family and church and work, it really doesn’t matter but get the support right away and don’t leave the man out. Let him feel that you’re going to listen to what he has to say. Because this is what happens – on the front end of the decision it’s all pushing. Like it’s you, it’s your decision. But on the back end, if they decide to have that baby, what’s the first thing they say? Get him for child support, find him and make sure that he’s supporting his child. Bring him in early, bring him in the beginning, give him a chance. Maybe he won’t rise up, but at least give him a chance and create an environment that it would be possible for him to do so because he needs support too.  

Christina: I just said that to a mother just this week who was considering abortion. And she said, “I’m not going to tell him he doesn’t even know that I’m pregnant and I want to have the abortion.” And she felt like it was God’s will for her to do that because God understood that she was struggling and everything. 

And so we talked through all of that. We talked for three hours and I said, I would tell him, maybe not today because I know that if he rejects you it’s going to be emotional and you’re already in that place. I would tell him. And then a couple of days later she said, okay, I’m ready to tell him. And she did. And he didn’t respond for a couple of days. And she said I don’t want to do this. I got to get the abortion. He’s not even responding. I’m going to, I’m going to call him. I said, why don’t you just wait, and she waited. And the next day he said, let’s go to breakfast. And they went to breakfast, and he wasn’t happy. He wasn’t super happy, but he said I’m not the type of guy to just like completely leave. And I said that’s a start, that’s not the best response, but we can work with that and we could pray and the baby’s not even here yet. And so for so long, men have been told no uterus, no opinion. That’s what they’re told by pro-choice advocates. It’s one of the slogans. Basically, shut up. Be quiet. You don’t know what it’s like to be pregnant, you definitely don’t know what it’s like to be raped, or in a situation like this, so you have no voice. And they’re told the best thing that you can do is just tell a woman It’s your body, it’s your choice, and I’ll support whatever you do, and just back off. 

And that’s a lie. So much of this industry is based on a lie, but that is a really evil lie. Because that’s not what it looks like to support a woman. When a woman is burdened and overwhelmed, feeling like, what am I going to do? And you say, it’s your call. Whatever you want to do, I’m here. That feels like all the responsibility is on your shoulders. 

And let me just go over here and just let me know what you decide. Okay. And if you do want to have the abortion, here’s a little money for it. No, that’s not what it looks like. And I know Lecrae was talking about listening to us women, but I’m over here emotional because I am so honored to listen to you both as men, especially as black men, and especially as younger black men, because how often do we hear black men having this kind of conversation? 

It’s very rare. Especially in the public and in society, it’s very rare because you’ve been told that you can’t talk about these things. So to even break through that lie and say, “Yes I can, I’m gonna have this conversation,” it takes a lot of courage to do that. And especially when you have a successful career, your athlete and artists and different things, a lot of people who would say you definitely have no right to speak upon this. 

And if you do, there’s like consequences that people give you. There’s a real cost where they say, okay, I’m not inviting you here. You’re not going to be a part of this because let’s be real. These industries and organizations have a lot of money, have a lot of connections, have a lot of power. So to speak up it’s a really beautiful thing to witness because there’s so many young black men who haven’t had fathers in the home and they’re looking for that example and they hear on the news, okay, this is what you should say. Or their friends tell them this is what you should say and that they hear the both of you saying, okay, I could step in, I could be a part of this. 

Even if I don’t have all the resources or the answers, I can say, “Hey baby, I’m here for you. I’m not going to leave.” That makes all the difference in the world. Not only can it save a life, but it can save generations. It can change generations.  

Brittany: Can I just share a little I want to piggyback off what we were talking about in the men conversation. I used to do sidewalk ministry at abortion clinics in Atlanta for about seven years. And there were times where, I’ll probably count on both my hands, A lot of times, the women came with female friends or mothers or, whatever. But there were times where they came with their partners or other men. 

And there are a number of times I can think of very clearly in my head where men came to talk to us and felt like they couldn’t do anything for their baby.  

They were like, I want this child. I told her I will support her. I will help her. I’m excited about this baby. She won’t listen to me. And a lot of times, these men said that they were driving her there to try and talk her out of it on the way there. Maybe I can intervene or something. And literally having men just feel helpless and emasculated. And I was like, I couldn’t imagine being a man wanting my child and telling the mother of my child, I will help you. I will support you. I’ll be there for you. And her still saying, I don’t want this baby. I don’t want your baby. I’m going in to get this abortion. 

And I think while we definitely absolutely need to invite men into the conversation, just having facets of all different experiences, especially in talking about how lost fatherhood by abortion does emasculate men and does leave brokenness the same way it leaves, brokenness for women who regret their abortions later on too. 

Christina: We need healing. Yeah. You hear things like that. We know that we need healing, but it’s deep.   

Lecrae: I’ve learned a lot sitting here. This is wow. It’s great. Yeah.  

Benjamin: Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, this is so rich and I could just sit here and continue to listen to the perspectives that you all are bringing to the conversation. It’s beautiful. And I’m hopeful that as our audience is listening and as they are interacting with this conversation and hearing that it that the Lord will use it to sink deep into their heart. And the Holy Spirit will convict them where there needs to be conviction and where they can think better. And I’m going to skip ahead. Benjamin, I want to come to you next. And then I want to ask one more question to all of us. And there’s so much that we’re not even unpacking. I wish we had hours more to have this conversation. But Benjamin, you’ve recently spent time talking to people across the spectrum on the issue of abortion. And for your documentary, Divided Hearts of America. And I want to just ask you to talk to us a little bit more about that. As you heard from people, as you’ve worked on the documentary. And by the way, I encourage anyone who has not been able to watch the documentary to go and watch Divided Hearts of America. The work that he’s done on that, he spent a long time doing this work and it’s extremely important.  

Benjamin: Thank you, Elizabeth. Yeah after New York passed the Reproductive Health Act back in 2019 if you can remember, it started like a cascade of legislation across the country. Illinois basically vowed to be the most abortion friendly state after they saw what happened in New York, and that happened. 

And there was this domino effect that was occurring that’s, in retrospect now, looking at what happened last year with the overturn of Roe it was all leading up to that point because different states were trying to either codify abortion into the law of their state, or other states were setting up trigger laws, which meant if Roe was overturned, their state would basically ban, effectively ban abortion. 

So you had these two extremes on both sides. And something we talked about earlier, Elizabeth, empathy. The entire documentary was about trying to find some empathy because so much of the conversation is about the baby killers, or the folks that are on a stream on the other side, the extreme pro-lifers it’s, and we lose the humanity in it. 

And so the whole point of the documentary was to see people as image bearers of a God who created them. And to see the dignity that everybody has, whether they had an abortion, whether they coerce somebody to have an abortion, whether they’ve never had an abortion, whether they advocate so that people can have the choice to have abortion, or whether they legislate so that people cannot have an abortion. 

We all have a sense of human dignity. No matter if we are believers or not, no matter where we fall on the spectrum. And I saw so much of this vitriol and name calling back and forth. And so in the documentary I spoke to about 30 different people. I spoke to people that were in arts and entertainment, people that were in medicine, folks who were activists, people who were abortion survivors, people who were in the faith community, people who were atheists, but they were pro-life. 

I tried to speak to both pro-life and pro-choice people just so that we can hear each other’s stories. So many times we don’t listen. There’s another word, listen. We don’t listen to other people’s stories. Therefore, we can’t lament what they’re going through and we certainly can’t love them because we haven’t listened to them in the first place. 

We talk about caring about people who are different than us, but we won’t even give them the time of day. And the documentary was really about that. Look, I’m coming from a pro-life perspective. I believe in the sanctity of human life. I believe that every child has value from conception all the way to natural death. 

But to sit across from someone who actually wrote the Reproductive Health Act, which I did sit across from people who are staunch advocates for abortion, the challenge is for us to see people as God sees them. To see them as his image bearers, whether we like them or not. It’s good. And yeah, I do encourage people to watch the documentary. 

I think it’s eye opening the things that I heard. You know the people that I spoke with, but the biggest thing I wanted people to get from it was – We can’t hope to win people over if we don’t see them as valuable human beings. We can’t seek people to, seek to win people over if we won’t even engage with them. And love them where they are. We can’t seek to win people over if all we want to do is condemn them. And that’s not about lowering the standard. That’s about keeping the standard, but saying, you know what? If, but for the grace of God, there would I go.  And so that’s, I think, what’s been missing so much. 

But I also think that’s the opportunity that we have to show the world something different. Cause when you turn on cable news, you know what to expect. The way you get ratings is to yell at people and to condemn people that are on the other side. But what if the people who claim to be pro-life or whole life, people who especially are followers of Christ act a little bit differently than the extremes of the people that they agree with, and the extremes of the people that they don’t agree with.   

Christina: I love that, because what are we fighting? We’re fighting people being dehumanized. So how can we fight that if we are then in turn dehumanizing other people? It doesn’t work that way.  

Brittany: We don’t wage war against flesh and blood. Okay, come on somebody.  

Benjamin: Yeah, you’re exactly right.  

That’s so true. We’re not fighting against people and so often we want to fight against that person and it’s our natural inclination. But we are fighting against – it’s a spiritual battle. 

I’m not fighting against you, I’m fighting against what you’re doing, what you’re advocating for, but it’s not against you.  

Christina: So don’t fight us on the internet when you watch this, okay?  

Elizabeth: That’s right. I’m going to just wrap up with one more question. And as you all look, each of you, because this question is for everyone. I want all of your thoughts. As you all look at the systemic drivers of abortion, the ones that we’ve been talking about. What encouragement would you offer those that feel that the problem is just too large for any single person to make a difference? What would you say when they say it’s just, it’s too large, it’s too complicated, it’s too nuanced, we just can’t, it can’t be done. What would you say?  

Lecrae: Yeah, one thing I would say is, I always go back and look at the scriptures and I look at Jesus walk on earth, and he said something. He said the poor will always be among us. But he also advocated that you take care of him, right? We may not eradicate any of these areas of a fallen world in our lifetime in our existence, but that doesn’t take away our responsibility to serve in the time that we’re here. 

And so we get the opportunity to play a part in God’s story. He’s ultimately bringing about the redemption that we want to see. We just get to play a role in it. And so man, play your role. It’s everyone, a house is built brick by brick. And if we get frustrated because man, I just put one brick in this house. That’s great. We needed that brick. Just like we need every other one that’s being put into the house.  

Elizabeth: That’s really good.  

Brittany: I would say, yeah, the issue is too large for one person to do. One person can’t do it, but as the body of Christ, and being led by God, Holy Spirit led like Lecrae was saying, we all have an individual part to play. Whether it’s through abortion clinic outreach, whether it’s advocacy, whether it’s making documentaries, through music, through writing and churches and other pro-life work, we all have a different part to play. 

And so connecting with each other, staying prayerful, and remembering we’re not in this alone. Yeah, we all have to just work together. Remember we’re in this together for God’s glory.   

Elizabeth: That’s really good.  

Chandra: And, Brittany, I think that as people of God let’s not forget the word of God. 

It’s so full. It’s so rich with guidance and models and examples and instruction and comfort and discipline. And all of these things that we need to make this work.  But you may, when you were talking, you made me think about the fact that we – I believe that God already has set it up to show us. Paul said one plants, one waters, but God gives the increase. Yes. So that’s telling us that you may be a planter. Don’t worry about what the water is doing. Don’t worry, but you know just plant. Because God’s standard, we believe as we look at the word, is faithfulness He wants us to be faithful. You know in the parable of the talents. When he’s talking at the end when he’s reading everybody’s efforts and whatever he says, you wicked and unfaithful servant. You didn’t even do what you could with what I gave you. So this really actually goes beyond just, should I do something? You would better be about it because there is an accountability to answer to on this thing.  

This is not like some side issue. It’s not oh, what can I, should I…everybody got going sackcloth and ashes and all of this fast for five days. It’s do it, get in there and do something. And we have feet and hands to this proposition right here. I sat there yesterday and listen to Barefield to talk about how one person can make a difference. He talked about how he and his wife are here for a political event, and how he’s walking around, he’s thinking “what in the world’s going on here with this Women’s March?” 

He was moved, he was touched, he became compelled to get involved. Now, maybe he’s not the best example, because he’s got money, he’s got resources. But it just goes to show one person, his wife saw it in him, she said, look, do something and I’ll fund it. We’re here. We’re here. This is here because one person was moved and became compelled to do something. 

So we have a biblical model. We have an admonishment that you better be about it. And we have a real life example right here.  

Elizabeth: It’s really good. It’s so good.  

Chandra: I’ll share a phrase. When I was in my twenties, I went to Africa. I spent three months in Mozambique doing ministry work. It felt really overwhelming. You go by the water and there was just hundreds of kids and they have like little tattered suits on. And sometimes you go into what they call the bush and you like see the kids and the little swollen bellies. And there was just, there was need everywhere. And I remember our leader, her name was Heidi Baker. 

She’s a minister. She said, all I want you to do is make a friend. And all I want you to do is stop for the one. Just stop for the one. And she talked about how many organizations would come into Mozambique and they would have all their resources and they would set up a tent and they would get people to come over and the people wouldn’t really trust them or respect them. 

They would take the food from them, but then that was about it. And so she urged us to be relational, to stop for the one in front of us. And so ever since then, I’ve tried to live by that. So who was the one person that maybe I have an interaction with online and she reaches out to me? Who was the one person in my community? 

Who was the one person that tells me something that maybe they wouldn’t feel comfortable telling somebody else? And what can I do about it? And I’m not the best at follow through. I’m not the most practical person. So sometimes I need somebody else to help me make sure that I can get this girl an appointment or a ride or something cause I forget the details. I’m not so detail oriented. So I reached out to somebody else to help me. But one by one we are changing lives and one by one we’re changing our country and one by one we’re loving people. And as you said, I think about that often. My story is that my mom walked out of her abortion appointment and I always think about like the other children that were in the waiting room that died that day. And I believe they go straight to heaven. So I’m like, am I going to go to heaven one day? And will they be there? And I don’t know how that all works out. But I do think if I was to die and to see them, I would say, I don’t know why I made it out and you guys didn’t. I don’t know why I was rescued and you weren’t but I was faithful to fight for you. 

And I was faithful to have a voice for you and for your moms and everyone else. And before God, I feel like I’ve done what he’s called me to do. It’s all you can do, do it in love. It’s all you can do.  

Sha’ron: I believe completely that each one of us is created on purpose for purpose. And it is up to us to make a difference with the dash that we have in this life. And it’s imperative that we don’t get bogged down with the overall aspect of it, but just to do our part. Our part makes a difference. To get from the end of this stage I have to make one step. So whatever we can do, whatever is within our mental intellectual capacity, or our economic stream to build this, that’s what we have to do. 

And I’m, I know time’s out… We are here because God wants us to be a blessing to somebody else. We are to bless other people. And by creating a world that strives to give dignity and respect to all human life, that’s what we’re created for. We are created for that thing.  

Benjamin: “He has told you, old man, what is good and what has the Lord required of you, but to do justice, to love kindness, to walk humbly with your God.” That phrase is in our house. It’s like our family motto as I’m sure it is around a lot of Christian households. These things seem to be overwhelming for one person, and I think they are, but God gives us prescriptions in his Word. And when we look throughout Scripture, and we think about the people like Moses, or Gideon, or Peter, or Paul, all these people. We think of them as if they were always doing this fantastic work that we read about in scripture. We don’t understand that the part that we see was a very minuscule part of their entire life, but it made all the difference. And so my point is, if we are doing justice, if we are loving kindness, if we are walking humbly with God…God may take your menial mundane life of being faithful and for a certain amount of time he may elevate you to do something that will be monumental for this movement and for justice and for life.  

And so it’s too big for one person. Yeah, it is. It’s not too big for one person that is filled with the spirit for a task that can change generations. And so be faithful with wherever he has you. It’s what we tell our kids. Be faithful wherever God has you to do. Be the best whatever He has you in. Wherever your field is, teaching, engineering, whatever it is, be faithful in that. Serve where you’re supposed to be. And then, who knows, if God makes a huge shift through you and other people.   

I also think this. That when it comes to systemic issues, we throw the word justice around a lot. 

Everybody talks about justice. Reproductive justice, criminal justice, environmental justice, justice, climate justice. We’ve all got justice. When we look at scripture, justice is two Hebrew words, but basically they talk about punishment, but also protection. And then it talks about equity in our daily interactions with people.  

So it’s almost the idea that if we, for one part of the righteousness and justice piece, if we were to do one part, the other part wouldn’t be necessary. If we were treating people correctly on a daily basis with equity, we wouldn’t have to worry about punishing offenders and protecting those who are innocent. 

So the two work hand in hand. I believe that when it comes to protecting the preborn child and their mother, this is a fight about justice. And when you look at who it impacts the most, when you look at how disproportionately it impacts black communities and black women, this is about justice. This is about correcting and having retribution for so much that has been wrong for so long.  

And too often we sit here in our current context and say we didn’t do what those people did in 1865. We didn’t do what those people did in 1968. We didn’t do what those people did in 2000 because now everything is cool and everything is even. Not understanding that, you know what, in 10 years in 2033, we’re going to look back at 2023 and say, I can’t believe they were doing that to those people back then. 

And so don’t think that the road for justice and how it impacts this abortion issue is a moot point. There are still so many issues that have to be dealt with that we’ve talked about, but some of them will take you looking into those things and discovering it for yourself. And then having the courage and willingness in your individual life, your family life and, your government life because God ordained all three of those, the home, the family, the church, the government – to do justice. 

For this issue and for the people that is impacting the most. It’s not easy, but it’s necessary. Dr. King once said that the most indispensable element of greatness is justice. If we aren’t a people, a nation, a church, believers committed to justice – we won’t be great.  

Elizabeth: That was like a mic drop. I think this is a wrap. Thank you all so much. There is so much goodness to just continue to be learning from in this conversation. There’s so much, I think that the Lord is already stirring in me to have some additional conversations. 

And I just want to say thank you for your perspectives. Thank you for what you bring to this conversation. Thank you for allowing me to enter into it with humility with you to be a learner. And I’m thankful that the Lord saw fit to preordain the fact that each of you would be sitting here with us having these conversations because it has to start somewhere. 

The conversation has to start and we just work to move inch by inch as we seek to broaden the conversation and we ask people to stand for life and think well about what it means to be created in the image of God. Thank you so much.